Narcissists in Brazil: Same Playbook? (with Tatiane Meinhart, Behavioral Therapist)

I understood the question. I explained it in some of my videos, but I will explain it here also.

First of all, I did not, I'm not the person who, I didn't coin the phrase shared fantasy. It was first described by Sander. Sander was a psychoanalyst he described it in 1989 so he came up with the concept of shared fantasy but I am the first to apply the concept of shared fantasy to narcissistic abuse and narcissistic relationships.

When the narcissist reaches the second half of the shared fantasy, he needs to get rid of you. He needs to get rid of you because there is a complex dynamics.

The shared fantasy is a simulation of the narcissist's relationship with his mother in early childhood. You became a mother. Within the shared fantasy you become a kind of mother. You also become the narcissist child, but you also become the narcissist's mother.

And so he needs to get rid of you. He failed to separate from his original mother, because his original mother did not allow him to separate. She was very insecure, very selfish, or very depressive, or she was what we call a dead mother, metaphorically. So she was a bad mother, and she did not allow the narcissist to become an individual by separating from her one way or another.

So the narcissist goes through life trying to find substitute mothers and then separate from them. And theway to separate from them is to devalue them and then discard them, dump them, throw them away, break up with them.

That is a symbolic act of separation.

So the narcissist is compulsive. He cannot help it. He cannot help this.

This is what Freud called the repetition compulsion.

He goes around, he finds mother substitutes, he idealizes the mother because mother is perfect and mother will give him unconditional love.

And then he needs to separate from mother, so he devalues mother and he discards mother.

And this is a symbolic reenactment of the original dynamic of separation, individuation from the biological mother.

But when the narcissist devalues the intimate partner, he converts the intimate partner from an idealized object to a persecutory object.

He converts the intimate partner from a godlike, perfect entity, internal object.

Remember, the narcissist does not interact with external objects. He does not interact with you.

To this very day, he does not interact with you. He is interacting with internal objects.

So initially, the internal object that represented you in his mind was all perfect, was ideal.

But then to get rid of you, he needed to make you the exact opposite, an enemy, hostile, dangerous, threatening, malicious, malevolent, demonic, etc.

So he devalues you.

But then he discards you and he remains stuck. He remains left with the persecutory internal object.

He got rid of you physically. You're out of his life. He moved on. He has another intimate partner.

But the internal object that represents you in his mind remains. You are gone, you disappeared, maybe even you died, physically died, but the internal object is there and the internal object is an enemy, it's persecutory.

Because remember in the devaluation you became an enemy.

So now the situation is all bad. It's all bad.

Yes, this is splitting defense. It's a splitting defense.

Initially you're all good and then you're all bad. It's a splitting defense.

Initially, you're all good, and then you're all bad. It's a splitting defense.

Okay. So now that's a situation. You're out of the narcissist's life. You're not there physically.

But there is an internal object that represents you, which is all bad, and a very threatening object, because it's all bad. It's wicked. It's evil. It's malevolence. It's malicious.

So this creates dissonance. It's terrifying to have such an object in your mind. It's very frightening.

So what the narcissist tries to do, he tries to force you to conform to the internal object.

He tries to force you to become the internal object.

In other words, the internal object is an enemy. He wants you to be an enemy.

The internal object is evil. He wants to see you as evil.

The internal object is malevolent. He wants to regard you as malevolent.

So then there will be no dissonance because if you match the internal object 100%, there is no dissonance.

Then there is no dissonance.

This is why he forces you to become an external persecutory object to match the internal...

Persecutory in reality.

In reality, yes.

He forces the external object to match the internal object.

By the way, this is always true.

Throughout the shared fantasy, the narcissist manipulates you because he wants the external object, you, to match the internal object that represents you in his mind.

When there is a mismatch, when there is no match, there is dissonance, very uncomfortable feeling, very unpleasant, very threatening.

So he constantly manipulates you and so on.

So, okay.

Yeah.

So when it ends?

For God's sake.

It doesn't end?

It never ends. The narcissist remains with your object for life.

Yes, but if I'm not the...

Matching with the persecutoryto... I am trying to...

He's trying to...

Then he has two options.

He can re-idealize you and then try to have another relationship with you. This is called hoovering. So he re-idealizes you and then there is a match again an idealized object.

And alternatively he can say the fact that you don't match the persecutory object proves that you are Machiavellian, proves that you are manipulative, proves that you're psychopathic, you're faking it, you're lying, you're deceitful.

So he reframes the external object to match the internal object.

But he can never get rid of the internal object. There's no such thing, by the way. No one can. He can never get rid of it. Then the dissonance is always there. And as long as you're alive, and as long as he has contact with you, he will try to coerce you. You'll try to reframe you, manipulate you, mutate you, change you to match the object.

Okay.

Professor, there's a...

Sam, but there is Sam. Sorry. Sam Vaknin. Yes.

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I agree with you that narcissists are not gaslighters. In fact, they really believe in their own fantasies.

But many experts and many mental health professionals describe this technique, the gas lighting, as a tool that narcissists used to manipulate their victims. Can you bring clarity to this topic?

After all, who practice gas lights?

There are no mental health experts online. And only people online say this. People in academia don't say this.

The people online are not experts. They are charlatans, they are dilettantes and they are con artists. Period. Even people with doctor, they are con artists.

So if you want to learn something, you need to go to scholarly and academic literature and never ever listen to anything on YouTube, because most of it is complete nonsense.

Gaslighting involves several important elements.

First of all, gaslighting is recognized in the clinical literature, and there are studies and there are so.

And it includes several important elements.

Number one, there must be a power asymmetry. Gaslighting cannot happen between equal people, equals. It can happen only when there is some kind of power play or power asymmetry.

Someone is stronger than another. Someone is more knowledgeable than another. Someone has more access to reality than another. Someone has more contacts than another. Someone is more knowledgeable than another. Someone has more access to reality than another. Someone has more contacts than another.

When there is this flow of power in a hierarchical way, then you could have gaslighting.

Number one.

Number two, gaslighting is always intentional. There is no such thing as unintentional gaslighting. It's always premeditated, deliberate.

In other words, it's a Machiavellian psychopathic technique.

Number three, the gaslighter knows the difference between reality and fantasy. He knows the difference between reality and the version of reality that he is trying to impose on another person.

The narcissist does not satisfy any of these three conditions.

The narcissist perceives the shared fantasy as shared. So everyone in the shared fantasy in the idealization phase is equal.

Number two, equal in terms of power. It's more like a partnership.

Number two, narcissists do not gaslight intentionally, cunningly. They're not cunning. They're not scheming. They're not psychopaths. They don't have an agenda.

Narcissists are not interested in money or sex or power, like psychopaths. Narcissists are interested in narcissistic supply.

So if by getting rich they can obtain supply, then they will get rich to obtain supply. If by becoming President of the United States, they will obtain supply, they will become President of the United States.

So everything is a means, is a tool to obtain supply.

Psychopaths are interested in sex, in power, in money, they're goal-oriented.

And so psychopaths gaslight intentionally and deliberately, in a premeditated manner.

And finally, and most importantly, narcissists cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality. They have impaired reality testing. They believe that the fantasy is real. They are delusional. They have a delusional disorder.

So if you cannot, if you believe in your own stories, in your own fantasies, in your own lies, in your own deceptions, and your own promises, you believe in your own promises, then you are not gaslighting. You are not future faking.

Psychopaths future fake. Narcissus never future faked.

When the narcissist makes you a promise about the future, the narcissist believes in this promise. He believes he's going to keep the promise. He never does. But when he makes the promise, he believes it.

When he introduces you into the fantasy, he believes in the fantasy. When he tells you we're going to get married, we're going to have three children, he believes in this. When he tells you, I'm going to be the most important person in the world, he believes in this.

They're delusional. They're mentally ill.

So there's no gaslighting here.

Narcissus never gaslight. They never gaslight and they never future fake.

And the truth is that narcissists rarely lie because they believe all this nonsense.

Psychopaths don't.

So psychopaths are manipulative and dangerous.

A psychopath would try to falsify your perception of reality to make you doubt yourself to begin to believe that maybe you're crazy or something's wrong with you. That's a psychopathic Machiavellian technique to take control over you and manipulate you.

Narcissists seem so gullible sometimes, ingenious, because if you understand this fantasy, this delusional, you offer what he or she wants and you can manipulate.

But a person with conscious character don't want to do this, but a psychopath or someone with this trait can do it very easily.

Sam Vaknin, narcissists are moral disengaged?

I'm sorry?

Narcissists are moral disengaged.

I'm sorry.

Connection with moral, moral, moral.

Morality?

Moral.

Morality disengaged?

Narcissists are...

Even morality, ethics, behaving moral?

Yes.

Yes?

There is a type, there is a variant of narcissists known as prosocial or communal narcissists. That is a kind of narcissist who is very grandiose about his morality.

So he would say I'm a very honest person and very just, and very moral, and very ethical, and very trustworthy, very reliable, and amazing.

So he would use his morality and his contributions, his altruism, his charity, he would use all this, he would leverage this thing to obtain narcissistic supply.

He would do it openly, he would do it publicly, he would do it ostentatiously, and he would solicit compliments and narcissistic supply.

But this is a small, a tiny fraction of narcissists.

The majority of narcissists are not immoral. They are amoral.

In other words, they are not like psychopaths.

Psychopaths are immoral.

Psychopaths defy morality. Psychopaths rebel against social rules, against the law, against social norms and mores.

Psychopathy is antagonistic. It's opposition to authority, for example. Psychopaths hate authority. They undermine authority and attack authority. Could be the police, could be a government, could be father, could be teacher. They're always in conflict with authority. They're defiant. They are reckless. This is a psychopath.

So, psychopath is immoral. In other words, psychopath has a philosophy that morality is wrong, that you should be opposed to morality, they should act in a way that takes away people's rights, that hurts other people, and that this is fully justified because, for example, it's Darwinian, it's evolution, you know, or because people deserve it because they're stupid.

So, I could say that psychopathy is an ideology. It's an ideology of immorality.

That's why I don't believe that psychopathy is a mental illness. I don't think it's a mental illness. I think it's a nihilistic philosophy. Nihilistic, sometimes anarchistic, and definitely always anti-human philosophy.

But it's a philosophy, it's an ideology.

Psychopaths very often verbalize. When you interview serial killers, they have a whole philosophy, why they're doing it. They would go into this.

And when you look at the Unabomber, he had a manifesto, and he published a manifesto in the New York Times.

The recent guy who killed the chief executive officer of United Health, an insurance company in the United States, there was a guy who killed the...

So he had a manifesto too.

Psychopaths come with a book. They always have a book. They always have a manifest. They always have an ideology, philosophy.

Narcissists are not like that at all.

Narcissists are not immoral and they are not moral. They are amoral. They are not opposed to the law. They couldn't care less. They are not opposed to morality, empathy, ethics. They just couldn't care less.

I would say that narcissism is a disorder of indifference, a disorder of apathy, apathia.

The narcissist couldn't care less.

The psychopath cares a lot.

Psychopath wants to hurt you. Psychopath is sadistic. He wants to damage you. He wants to break you. He wants to destroy society. He wants to undermine institutions he has. He wants to destroy society, he wants to undermine institutions.

Psychopath is very, he externalizes aggression, but in a highly structured way. And he's into this. It's like a lifestyle.

So psychopathy is a highly complex, psychosocial cultural phenomenon. It's very complex, there's many dimensions and so.

Whereas the narcissist is a basic primitive animal. It's a binary animal. I feel good, I feel bad. That's it. I have supply. I feel good. I don't have supply. I feel bad. That's it. I have supply, I feel good. I don't have supply. I feel bad. End of story.

And narcissists don't care. They don't care about their intimate partners. They don't care about other people. They don't care about themselves. They're highly self-destructive and self-defeating. They don't care about their jobs, they don't care about anything.

A psychopath will change jobs very frequently. Psychopaths are itinerant, they're unstable. They change jobs, they change.

But a psychopath would change jobs within a narrative. He would say, I'm changing jobs because that way I can make more money or that way I can be appreciated and promoted. So he will have a narrative, an organizing principle, why he's changing jobs so often.

And narcissists justgoes with a flow. He's totally inert, totally passive.

Psychopaths are active, proactive. Psychopaths initiate, psychopaths take over, they manipulate, they control, they gaslight, they're very active.

And narcissists is passive. Whatever happens? Who cares?

Narcissism is about who cares?

Psychopathy is about oddly I care.

So it's a huge gap. These are not the same disorders. So you have charlatans online that say that all psychopaths are narcissists and other such nonsense.

You have other charlatans who say that 16% of a population are narcissists. I mean, the nonsense online is horrible.

And we should be very careful about this because the clinical literature is already 150 years old. And it's pretty clear about many issues.

Yes.

Professor, with all this context, the confusion is installed.

And the people are so confused because the behavior, the persons that looks like adults, but is acting like a child.

In recent video, you said that a statistic lecture in a seminar, you said that in three adults, two behave like children and one have the abilities from chronologic and maturity.

So what I can expect, what we can expect from this role that two, in three persons, you have two child in adult bodies, what we have to expect because we can think that this person is narcissists but are not just like a child.

Yeah, they don't want to compromise, that don't want responsibilities, that don't want nothing.

Don't want to marry, don't take care of this dog or the child. Don't have compromise. Want everything in enhance, everything. You have to agree with all the bullshit, oh, I am a broccoli, oh, I am a dog.

Why broccoli?

I like broccoli.

And it's very difficult for the person that is grounded in reality.

Because for an adult, you have to keep your mouth closed.

Yeah.

It was not a seminar. It was a visiting professor in Southeast European University. So it was a class in the university.

Yeah, the recent studies show that 60 to 70% of people would not qualify as adults. They still retain what we call neotony. They still retain a critical childlike psychodynamics and clinical features that by no means we can classify them as adults.

This is nothing new. In the 70s there was a book, the Peter Pan syndrome. In the 60s, there was the concept of Puer Aeternus, or Puella Aeterna, Eternal Adolescent.

And so the thing is, like Freud said, you have to choose between the pleasure principle and the reality principle. Adults choose the reality principle. Children choose the pleasure principle.

And the thing is that reality nowadays is so horrible on so many levels, that it is a rational decision to not grow up.

That's a problem. The problem with it's rational. I would even say that it's a positive adaptation to not grow up.

Because if you don't grow up, you become a parasite. And as a parasite, you can live off. You can live off your parents, you can leave off your friends, you can leave off your intimate partner.

So not growing up is a survival strategy. And a survival strategy that renounces reality and allows you to continue to exist in a paracosm, in a fantasy, in an alternative reality.

And if you find reality intolerable and unbearable and threatening and unacceptable and unpleasant and dissonant, then you have no incentive to grow up.

There are no sufficient rewards, no sufficient positive reinforcements to growing up. On the contrary, when you grow up, you have to pay taxes. You have responsibilities. You may be sent to die as a soldier. I mean, horrible things can happen to you. Or your children. Some bad things can happen to your children. Or your children may hate you, statistically quite common.

It's an ugly scenario, ugly script. The future is ugly.

So many, many people choose to never grow up and to remain childlike.

And so, how to accommodate this?

Well, the first solution is technology. Modern technologies are fantasy-based. So they allow you to survive within fantasy and never exit the fantasy.

Modern technologies encourage you to not have relationships. They encourage you to not work too hard. They encourage you to play a lot, video games or whatever. They encourage you to pretend, for example, to pretend that your friends on Facebook are your friends. They encourage you, they legitimize your negative affects, your rage, your envy, they're not legitimate.

So modern technologies create an immersive, immersive, all-encompassing environment, which is essentially fantasy-based, and allow you to not grow up to the day you die without any functional problem.

And so, we are creating a world of children. And soon I think all of us would become or remain children.

For example, you mentioned milestones, milestones in growing up. You mentioned marriage. Why get married? You mentioned children. Why have children? You mentioned having a stable job. Why have a stable job? Why do these things?

They don't pay. They're horrible. They are very difficult. They don't contribute.

I am tired.

Oh, here in Brazil, many have jobs, but has people have people too. But the people don't want to work because I have to wake up too soon, take a bus and the boss said what I have to say, what I have to do. No, I have internet. I will be rich. I will play games and take money. So it's very easy.

I work in a school and the teachers can say to the children, please bring me your work because if you said to the children please bring your work I want to see you what you are asking for my work. I am so shame called a mom and a mom in the teacher. You are bad, you are bullying my child.

The teacher has to shut up and do what they want because they can be frustrated. They can be received a piece of reality.

It's very insane because this kind of people can't be a narcissist, but behave like a narcissist and don't have empathy.

And lack of empathy can be considered a hallmark of NPG, just?

No.

Lack of empathy is, first of all, it's not accurate to say that psychopathic and narcissists don't have empathy. They have a special kind of empathy. They have what I call cold empathy, which is a combination of cognitive and reflexive empathy.

They don't have affective empathy. They don't have emotional empathy.

In other words, they don't resonate with you emotionally. When they see you crying, they will not be sad. They will not feel sad.

So there's no emotional response, but they see you crying. They will know that you are sad.

So this is cognitive empathy. And maybe even they will do this with a face. That is reflexive empathy.

So they have the primitive empathy, reflexive, they have cognitive, but they did not evolve. They did not develop emotional empathy because they don't have emotions or access to emotions.

The psychopath and narcissists don't have access to positive emotions, and the borderline is overwhelmed by her emotions. She has a very bad relationship with her emotions. Her emotions are enemies, and so she needs to regulate her emotions from the outside or commit suicide.

So it's a very life-threatening thing, her emotions.

So all these people, they don't do emotions well.

And today we're beginning to realize that borderlines as well have much reduced affective empathy, emotional empathy. We used to think that borderlines do possess emotional empathy.

But today, recent studies and so on show that they are too. They are compromised when it comes to emotional empathy.

If you have bad relationships with your emotions, you cannot have emotional empathy because it's dangerous for you.

If the borderline empathizes with you when you're crying, she will feel sad and then the sadness will take over and she will become suicidal. So she cannot empathize with you when you're crying.

If the narcissist empathizes with you when you're crying, then he will get in touch with emotions like shame that are very dangerous for the narcissists.

So the narcissist says, I don't want to have emotions at all.

If the psychopath empathizes with you, he will not be able to take your money or have sex with you. So it will defeat the goals of the psychopaths.

So in all these cases, there's no emotional empathy, but there are other forms of empathy.

It's the form to survive.

Professor, Sam, I have a question.

Borderline, Narcissists and Anti-Social belongs to the same group, and have many common behavior.

But what is the difference?

Because so similar, looking superficial, I can see you are borderline.

And the most people think that the person is just borderline or just narcissists or just nothing more. But we can see that the person has traits, has many traits sometimes the group A B C not just B. Can you explain the difference between narcissists, borderlines and unsocial, even if they have similar behaviors? And like empathy, emotional empathy is one similar to this group.

So the short answer is that if you have a cluster B disorder of any kind, then you're likely to show clinical features of all cluster B disorders. You may also be diagnosed with a cluster A or cluster C personality disorder, but that would be a comorbidity.

But if you are a psychopath, or let's say, if you are narcissists, you will always have phases in life where you are a borderline. For example, in narcissistic collapse, when the narcissist cannot obtain narcissistic supply, there is deficient narcissistic supply, not enough. The narcissists becomes emotionally dysregulated.

In narcissistic mortification, when the narcissist is humiliated, suddenly humiliated, unexpectedly, and there's narcissistic mortification, the narcissist loses all his defenses. He decompensates and he becomes indistinguishable from a borderline patient.

After narcissistic mortification, the narcissist has emotional dysregulation and becomes suicidal, a suicidal ideation, exactly like bodily.

Similarly, a narcissist who is challenged or sustains narcissistic injury or threatened becomes a primary psychopath. A psychopath who is frustrated repeatedly in trying to obtain a goal becomes grandiose and resembles a narcissist.

So the modern approach is that all cluster B personality disorders are just facets, aspects of a single clinical entity. And that is the approach in the ICD. The single clinical entity with emphasis on trait domains.

Various trait domains are emphasizedand there is not type constancy. Any therapist would tell you, any clinician would tell you, that when they work with a borderline, she's sometimes a narcissist and she's sometimes a psychopath. Any clinician would confirm this.

So all these distinctions are artificial and wrong. Artificial and wrong.

However, when you are a psychopath, when you're in a psychopathic phase, or when you're in a narcissistic phase, or when you're in a borderline phase, and you can be in various phases at various times, there are differences. There are differences between the trait domains.

So I mentioned a few, but for example, a psychopath couldn't care less about narcissistic supply. He's not interested in the narcissistic reply. He's goal-oriented, but the attention from other people, feedback from other people is meaningless to the psychopath.

And the narcissist cannot survive without narcissistic supply. It's a crucial fuel for self-regulation.

The borderline cannot control her emotions. Her emotions overwhelm her, drown her, threaten her, and so. She is dysregulated. That's the main feature of borderline.

And yet, when she decompensates, for example, when the borderline is faced with abandonment and rejection, real abandonment and rejection or anticipated, she then becomes a psychopath. She does not emotionally dysregulate. She decompensates. Her defenses disappear. She becomes defiant, reckless, crazy-making. She acts out.

But there is no emotional dysregulation in that phase. She becomes a secondary psychopath, impulsive.

So, yes, there are major differences between the trait domains, combinations of traits, but any individual with a cluster B disorder always is one of these, one of these at different times, always.

And I agree with you that we should expand this attitude, and we should say that there is only one personality disorder.

Because, for example, the narcissist, when the narcissist fails repeatedly to obtain narcissistic supply, which is a condition known as narcissistic collapse, the narcissist becomes schizoid. He avoids all social contact. He withdraws. He isolates himself. He refuses to go out. He refuses to meet people. He refuses to talk to anyone. He cuts himself off. That is schizoid behavior. And schizoid behavior is essentially cluster C.

So I agree that it's a single personality disorder.

And all of these differential diagnosis are counterfactual. They are wrong in my view. All these distinctions are wrong. That's why we have so many comorbidities.

Comorbidity, the same individual is diagnosed with six personality disorders, and a mood disorder, and anxiety disorder, I don't know what. It's nonsense, it's ridiculous. Something wrong with this kind of system.

Yes.

Here in Brazil has a psychiatrist that was almost cancelled because he said exactly what he said about borderlines that can alter for a state, can lose this totally disregulated and kill someone.

Here in Brazil, we have a killer woman, Eliz Matsunaga. She was diagnosed with borderline and he find a...

Her husband was getting out with another woman. And he finds a film and put a detective to take pictures. When he came from home, he killed her in cuts in pieces and put in a back and take the back, two backs, take the car and go to a forest and throw away and call the mom of his youth, but, oh, my dear, Arlain, I'm waiting for him.

The common...

She gets in this psychopathic state.

And this psych, psychiatry said that borderline can do bad things.

And the community here in Brazil, the borderline, oh no, borderline is so empathetic and so warm and can kill, except here in Brazil, it's difficult to talk about borderline because it's in a bubble.

No, first of all, many borderlines...

Kind of bubble.

First of all, many borderlines are comorbid. In other words, many borderlines are also narcissists. And a big, quite a big fraction of borderlines are also psychopaths. So comorbidity of psychopathy in borderline is pretty high. And definitely comorbidity of narcissism in borderline is very high.

That's one thing.

Second thing, today we definitely, the mainstream, what we teach in university and so on, is that borderlines switch to a secondary psychopathic state when they decompensate, when their defenses are down, and when they act out. So then they become defiant and reckless, but also very violent and very aggressive.

Anyone who has been with a borderline would tell you that a borderline, when she's frustrated, or when she's jealous, or when she anticipates rejection and abandonment, or when she is rejected and abandoned, or when she's humiliated in all these conditions, a borderline becomes very violent. Anyone would tell you this.

The borderline throws objects, destroys electronic devices, can try to hurt you, beats you up, runs at you with a knife. Anyone who has ever been with a borderline is acquainted with these sins. They're very common.

So externalized aggression in borderline personality disorder has been documented and is a clear clinical feature.

Killing is a psychopathic act.

So for killing, I would think that this woman is a comorbid. I think she is also a psychopath.

Killing is rare because killing requires primary psychopathy.

And so this woman is probably also a psychopath. And the fact that she called the mother, the husband's mother, and she pretended and she acted, psychopaths do that. They fake. They pretend. They act. They lie. They're deceitful. Psychopaths are deceitful.

But borderline can be violent in other ways, not necessarily kill. Violence is a clinical feature of borderline, definitely. Whoever says otherwise doesn't know the field.

But it's need to, the borderline need to know this because he or she can say, be this kind of person too, not just the I empathetic people. So I can't, it's prohibit to say that the borderline can be violent. And it's something real.

It's bizarre because every borderline.

How can you treat this person? He or she has a potential?

Well, the violence could be self-directed. In other words, in the majority of cases, the violence is externalized. In other words, So violence is externalized, in the majority of cases.

As I said, they would break all kinds of things, and they would go crazy, scream, attack, physically attack, and so.

But in a minority of borderline cases, there is internalized aggression.

So these borderlines would become suicidal, and they may even attempt suicide.

That's also form of aggression. It's also violence.

Yes.

It is self-directed violence, but it's still violence.

So there is no borderline case without aggression, externalized or internalized, period. Not such thing. Not one.

So, Vaknin, and this internalized self-directed violence can create immune disease, because I see it.

I don't know, I'm not an expert on this.

Okay.

I'm not an expert.

I know that the Gabor Maté, who is a medical doctor, says that, yeah, there is a connection between trauma and autoimmune diseases including big trauma. It's very common.

Very common.

Oh, I thinkthat you are tired.

No, don't worry.

But we shouldn't make it too long because people on YouTube, they don't like very long.

Okay, okay, yes.

After that they...

Yes.

Professor, I want to thank you a lot for your patient, for everything. And I will continue to share your work and do the translations and the blotation. You help a lot. Brazilian folks like a lot, you love your work. Thank you so much.

I thank you for your support and for everything you are doing to spread my work and so on. It's very nice of you very kind of you and I will be uploading this. I now have to upload the seminar from Zagreb. I gave a seminar in Zagreb, so I have to upload now five installments. Five. So I will upload this interview next week and I will let you know when I have uploaded.

Okay.

Grazie, very thank you.

Thank you very much. Have a nice day there.

Now this is free.

Bye.

Bye.